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Viva-Granada :: View topic - Swimming pool Automation - Chlorination, pH and Heating
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Swimming pool Automation - Chlorination, pH and Heating
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:08 am    Post subject: Swimming pool Automation - Chlorination, pH and Heating Reply with quote

<font class="content">Automatic Swimming Pool Chlorination and Heating

JB Supplies Spain, S.L.

Suppliers of:
Automatic Swimming Pool Salt-Water Chlorination from Australia, the originators of this system:

http://www.watermaid-europe.com/Advantages_of_Watermaid_System.html

Solar water heating and Heatpump Systems for pools and domestic hot water:

http://www.jb-supplies-spain.com/Heatpumps.html

Automatic control of pH:

http://www.jb-supplies-spain.com/pool_automation.html

Information pages: http://www.jb-supplies-spain.com/Information.html

Enquiries please:
Email - information@jb-supplies-spain.com</font>
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santanna
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">Ecological pool systems sl.

I think that salt chlorination and also chlorine and other chemicals have now seen there day. People should know the way foreword is now in freshwater systems such as the ecosmarte.com and the ecopoolsystems.com they are fantastic.
Brussels have now banned the use of salt-chlorinators because of the damage it is doing to the water table.In the UK. you must now have by law install a holding tank for all salt and chlorine pools incase of a leak problem ( this is quite inpracticle for most people.)This is all coming to spain .You can not equal swimming in fresh water systems. But the Ecosmarte is the only one that actually works.
www.ecopoolsystems.com
Many thanks for taking the time to read this.</font>
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">[quote:74ddc3a5c1="santanna"]Ecological pool systems sl.

I think that salt chlorination and also chlorine and other chemicals have now seen there day. People should know the way foreword is now in freshwater systems such as the ecosmarte.com and the ecopoolsystems.com they are fantastic.
Brussels have now banned the use of salt-chlorinators because of the damage it is doing to the water table.In the UK. you must now have by law install a holding tank for all salt and chlorine pools incase of a leak problem ( this is quite inpracticle for most people.)This is all coming to spain .You can not equal swimming in fresh water systems. But the Ecosmarte is the only one that actually works.
www.ecopoolsystems.com
Many thanks for taking the time to read this.[/quote:74ddc3a5c1]

That is an interesting 'FACT' actually? and especially in the UK where there is more harm done by water softeners and dishwasher which all use salt, I cannot imagine the ratio of swimming pools to water softeners and dishwashers?

Your next comment about fresh water being more natural? actually we humans have salt in our bodies, when we are severely dehydrated we are placed on a saline drip in hospital not fresh water.

Swimming in a mildly saline solution, actually less that the salt in our bodies and technically below the concentration for the term 'salt water' is better for us our skin feels much softer, the chlorine manufactured from sea salt is less aggressive and kinder to eyes and nasal passages. Salt has always been known for centuries as an antiseptic, we sell several units a year to people with sensitive skin, excema and psoriasis.

We have looked at many different systems only the Saltwater chlorination system is [b:74ddc3a5c1]'stand alone'[/b:74ddc3a5c1] That is, it does not require any additional chlorine, all other systems at some point will require additional chlorine. apart from some ozone systems but they have to operate 24 hours/day as the ozone disappears so quickly from the pool - more expensive to buy, maintain and operate.

Lots of alternative systems will kill algae and germs etc. but they will not 'oxidise' the particles, bugs etc. that have been killed chlorine is an oxidiser and this is needed to get rid of the remains.

I hope that covers the subject if you have any queries please get back to us I have several articles on various systems.

Regards,
Dave</font>
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santanna
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">Well i hope you have convinced yourself it sounds like you have. But you have to admit you are a little byest .If you look at the ecosmarte system you will find it does actually have naturally produced oxidation system to burn it all away as you put it.
Why? if salt is so good for you does any solar/winter cover rot away in 2 -3 yrs max , pumps last less time .And no cover manufacturer will give a guarantee on any products using salt chlorinating systems.
Althought i do realise your body needs salt but in such small amounts a pool sanitation system is hardly the same thing And i do not think the same amount of salt and chlorine in your body would be at all good for you.One more point what do you do with the water when you want to service your pool, No Farmer will be at all happy to see it on his land killing all his almond trees. And i know it is not good for any of the water treatment plants.
regards</font>
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">Oh Santanna,
You are naughty you know.

Public health authorities in Spain frequently visit public swimming pools and like to measure the amount of residual chlorine in the pool (free Chlorine) the reason they do this is because they know that not all the water is passing through a filtration system in any given filtration cycle, some water may pass through many times in other areas of the pool it may take a lot longer for it to pass through, the residual chlorine is in the pool and will kill or oxidise any areas that have not passed through the filtration system - The Ecopool system may well sanitise the water passing through the cell but will leave no residual in the actual pool and that is a possible problem as users can pick up any infectious germs that are still in the pool, which in a pool with several users could have just become infected i.e. children have 'accidents' in the pool, with a residual chlorine level in the pool these bugs stand a far greater chance of being killed - providing the pool pH and stabiliser levels are in good shape.

Rotting of pool covers, that is mainly down to UV salt does not rot plastic.
Pump failures - a lot of pump failures will be down to incorrect placement of Chlorine tablets - in the skimmers - the tablets dissolve even while the pump system is off the high concentrations of chlorine migrate into the pump / filtration system where they are concentrated until the system starts and pumps fresh water through.
Chlorine tablets should be used with either fixed dosification system or a 'floater'
Your website tells of high costs for installing saltwater systems and for maintenance, the Watermaid cell has an average life of 8 years with a replacement cost of 140 euros.
The watermaid power supply unit will probably last as long as the pool being an extremely heavy duty designe and salt is available for 4 euros/bag one a year should suffice most pools.

A lot of our customers have skin allergies and use salt in the bath, one customer in particular could not use his pool before we installed the watermaid unit - his wife used the pool, he had to use the sea.

I am sure you have many happy customers and you mention a figure, Watermaid have been in business since 1970 and have over 200,000 units sold worldwide.
95% of pools in Australia use Saltwater Chlorination.

For people concerned about backwash water we reccommend backwashing to a holding tank, allowing the water to settle and then pumping it back into the pool, you can clean the settled sand and other accumulations of dirt and dispose of it in an environmentally clean way, the water is re-used so it also saves on water, something we try to encourage as we do ask people not to backwash everytime they clean their pool.

Regards,
Dave</font>
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santanna
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">My that took a long time to reply.

I think you will find you are talking about the ozone or the uv light stems. They do not hold a residual in the water our does.

Brussels have now banned the use of slat chlorinators due to the water table being damaged this say's a lot to me. Salt can never be taken out of the water.

Our ecosmarte 100% chemical free system leaves a ionised copper residual in the water that lasts far longer than chlorine (copper is now a recognized sanitation method for hospitals , hotels , food factorys , dental practises to name a few.This will also kill many more bugs and bacteria than salt chlorinators and chlorine such as clyptosporidium (guardi cyst).

The salt chlorinators really have seen there day and chlorine tablets are not far behind. As chlorine will be banned in forceable futer.

ofcourse the other problem with salt is you only need a very small hole in the concrete and the salt will seep in and get to the re-inforcing bars, they in turn will rust extremely fast and it is good by pool or very expensive repairs . We have come accross this a lot.

Also we have not been able to find a pool liner manufacturer that will give a guarantee on the product if used with salt, Yet cover and pool liner companys are more than happy to with our 100% salt/chlorine free pool and spa water purifyng system.

If you would like to look to the future then it may be possible for you to become a dealer. But we as an ecologically green company do not supply chlorine
salt or chemical.You can still get green hair with salt chlorinator.

Most pool company are fighting this method of sanitation because it does not need chemicals and they are losing a lot of money each year in salt and chlorine /anti algass,floculanty and other.It will cost only 80 every 4 yrs to replace the self sacrificing copper electrodes.
web site www.ecosmarte.com or www.ecopoolsystems.com
regards carl</font>
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">The residual I am talking about is the oxidiser.

You could perhaps measure the ORP mayby that would work as an indication, as there is no Chlorine in your system.

Regards,
Dave</font>
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santanna
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">You are quite right my freund there is no chlorine or chemicals in the Only true 100% chlorine/salt free pool and and spa water purifying system available in spain.But 8 hrs a day standard running time is more than enought as titanium plate naturally produced oxidation
ie.
ORP.
AS follows.
20-80 grams per minute of oxygen radicals created from the water not chemical.atomic oxygen (o1) and oxygen(o2)( at 20-900 gallon per minute flow rate)

oxidation reduction potential ORP. relative value have less affect on natural oxidation than chlorine hence the chlorine burns away very quickly. Ours does not.hope this clears it up for you
regards carl</font>
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">That looked good, but skirted the issue of the fact that the oxidation process only operates while the system is running, whereas when you have a chlorine residual of 0.5~1ppm as you would in a Saltwater pool system it is a continoues process when the system is not running.

The copper ION's are still working in the pool which should kill the bacteria and so long as you get it right won't stain the pool.

We are not saying that it won't work it's the fact that using natural Sea Salt in the very low percentages that we do is much nicer to swim in and additionally it easily ensures the pool is maintained in a healthy condition.

The flow rate has little to do with it as I said earlier some water will pass through the system several times in one 8 hour session but some may not pass through in 24 hours which is where the residual oxidiser (Chlorine) plays it's part in maintaining the pool condition.

There are other systems available in Spain that work on the same principle as the Ecopool system so you do have competition.

At the end of the day customers will chose which system and method of operation suits them.

Regards,
Dave</font>
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santanna
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">It only needs to work the 8hrs because it does leave a residual of 2,72 orp. where as chlorine only has 1.0 orp residual. bromine a 0.57 orpan sodium hypercloride 0.69orp.

As you know swimming in the sea leaves you sticky and feeling in general in need of a shower.

The ecosmarte system is like swimming in a fresh water mountian stream or lake without the need to shower after.

There is no other system proven to work in spain using this technology so it does stand out there alone.

i suggest you look at the www.ecosmarte.com web site and click on (are you thinking of buying a salt chlorine generater click here) There is some interesting reading in there.

I think we should maybe call it a day now you are quite convinced with the system you sell and i am convinced with system our company sells.

kind regards Carl.</font>
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">Hi santanna,

As you probably know I am interested in all methods of pool sanitising.

Checking up on 'How they Work' and any criticalities I think it is almost essential if you have an Ionisation system to have auto-pH as algae can become a problem with a Ionisation system with pH of 7.3~7.8 and above, in Spain the supplied water pH is above 8.0.

The reason for Ionisation to be less effective with higher pH I am led to believe is because the copper and silver Ions can 'bind' together significantly reducing the sanitising properties of the system.

Another feature is if the Ion production is not monitored critically then staining of the pool can result from too high Ion content.

How does the Ecosmarte system control these potential problems?

Regards,
Dave</font>
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santanna
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">Hi Dave

You are quite the copper and silver ion systems are not that good and do require chlorine or none chlorine shocks . Yes you will have staining probs with a copper and silver systems and with all liquid ionise systems.These are reduction system. Our's is NOT a copper and silver system

However ecosmarte system does not use silver only copper. With as you already know titanium plates for natueral oxidation. The ph requirement is 6.8 to 7.2 waters natueral state. But if this is not correct with all sanitation types the pool will go green or cloudy.

We do supply a automatic feed with our fully automated systems. Using bottles of CO2 which is the most ecological way of dealing with ph.

You only need to check the copper content 1 a week or once every 2 weeks. And you flick a switch to raise the level when at desired level put switch back to oxidize. This is far simpler than salt and chlorine systems.

We now have a dealer in your area covering a large area round the airport. up and down the coast . No doubt you will see it advertised very soon.
regards Carl</font>
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">We would never advocate using a pH of less than 7, preferable around 7.2 .
At 6.8 it would be slightly acidic and would encourage excessive leaching of the tile grout in the attempt of the water to reach a netural pH.

With a saltwater system there is never any danger of pool staining and once installed it could be left to operate for months without any need to adjust which makes the system particularly interesting for people not living here.

Regards,
Dave</font>
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santanna
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">6.8 is not acid but below 6.8 is.

6.8 to 7.2 is neutral state of water.

I know for a fact and from talking to many many pool maintanance people you can not leave salt pools for long period because they go green .
not fopgetting it is simply changing salt to chlorine at the end of the day
so you may as well just use chlorine in the first place.

Althought you can leave the fully automated ecosmarte system for periods of up to 6 months without a problem.
carl 646686463</font>
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jbsupplies
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<font class="content">How would you maintain the pH neutral is 7 by the way.
If you were not at the property for 6 months without an Auto-pH system when you consider the water you fill the pool with is 8+?

As you say a saltwater system changes salt into natural chlorine without any commercial bulking agents.
A correctly adjusted saltwater system will not allow the pool to go green, not enough people understand any system other than adding chlorine tablets.

We understand the problems that exist with all systems as we have researched them all and supply whichever system people wish to have including ionisation/oxidation systems.

But we would never say that any system is totally 100% chemical free especially when you have to maintain the pH to such critical parameters.

Whether you use Acid or Co2 as the medium to adjust pH.

Regards,
Dave</font>
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